Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:56 PM
To : Joe Faust <joefaust333@hotmail.com>
CC : Alternative-Kite@yahoogroups.com
Subject : Re: Water Kite Note 3
 

Well, the big question would be, what's the weight of the thing?  Water weighs a lot, so that would have to be taken into consideration.

Also, ice is pretty brittle...

But perhaps instead of frozen water, you should instead be thinking of doing something with polymers, you know, those beads that soak up multiple times their size and weight in water and stay wet for weeks.

The stuff that's used in gardening to keep soil moist; also used in those neckerchiefs you soak in water, the polymer beads that are sewn inside soak up the water (basically turning into a gel) and stay wet for days, so you can wear the wet neckerchief in hot weather to stay cool.  After a week or so the water evaporates, leaving the small polymer pellets.

You'd just need to encase the polymer beads in a close-weave netting material, when they were put in water they'd soak up multiple times their size and weight in water, turning into a gelatinous mass.  Turn that net-encased gelatinous mass into a kite.

Advantage of the polymer beads would be that you wouldn't have to worry about the temperature, they don't melt like ice would.  You'd be able to fly water to hot dry areas, where they'd really need it. 

June

Comments are invited.   Here are some development comments already:

• Super-absorbent polymers: The super absorbent cross-linked polymers that soak up water (to 400x the polymer's weight) will no doubt have many interesting plays in kiting. "1 oz. of crystals can absorb over 1 gallon of water" is a claim made at http://www.crystals.us/   Also of a similar water gel:  "This fine polymer powder instantly turns slushy when you add water. Sodium polyacrylate absorbs from 800 to 1000 times its weight in water and is actually the secret ingredient that's used to absorb "liquid" in baby diapers!" from: http://www.stevespanglerscience.com/product/1278    An interesting side use of a similar polymer (Cr(III)carboxylate/acrylamide) polymers in oil production: http://www.nmcpttc.org/Case_Studies/GelPolymer/  in the Arbuckle formation.
  Related: (freezing of gel pads): http://www.allpack.co.uk/sorba2.htm
  Related:  http://www.theartisticshop.com/water%20polymer%20crystals.htm
   
• Flinn Scientific Chem Fax - Sodium Polyacrylate, Pub. No. 755.10
   
• Here is possibly a neat application of the water-absorbent crystals in kiting: Loft a set of  dehydrated water-absorbent polymer bits into a cloud (caution: government airspace rules will mostly prohibit kite flying into clouds at altitude; check and plan first!) and perhaps soak up the water there; bring the bloated crystals back down  for use in hydrating activities, perhaps survival watering. How easily will Sodium polyacrylate hydrate when flown in humid airs by a lofty kite?  Extracting the held water may be tricky and perhaps involve salt and maybe solar distillation to get potable water for human consumption.
   
• The current "just water" water-kite project will stay on course and distinct from the use of water-soak-up- polymers for the water-only kite itself.  The proposal to do otherwise helps to clarify the just-water challenge and opens up a second program that many may explore. I will.   The very challenges of water for just-water kites is part of the driving cause for the kite-of-just-water project.
   
• The weight of a successful water kite will play as it will. Part of the challenge of the project is to be successful in the face of the physical qualities of water. Water is now known to be capable of being in about 14 phases. Each phase has its special physical characteristics that will limit kite systems employing water in one or more of its phases.  Thin-plates of ice with even thinner-areas in the broader plate might become sail or airfoil areas on a successful water kite. Ribs can have lightening holes as is common in kite and aircraft building and model-aircraft building.
   
• The most common phase of water ice is experienced as being brittle. That quality may well come into play to hold precise airfoil shapes during successful flight. Crash and break and melt are things that happen to water kites; such events speak to the post-successful-flight space.    The challenges of brittleness will lead to a fuller understanding of just what might be achieved concerning the surface dynamics of ice forms made in certain ways; how much can be done with water itself to face crack propagation challenges? What temperatures might prove to be very productive in terms of successful flying of a water kite built in a certain way? Does repeated surface wipe/melt/freeze change crack propagation from surface events?
   
• Hollow thin-walled tapered conical forms are going to be easily made using two-ply plastic and plugs. The material--water--is low cost!   Make as many parts as you wish. Admittedly, some definite costs come into play that alter the story. If one does not live in freezing climates, then there is a cost to use freezers to make and to hold frozen parts of the kites being built. Breakage before and after flight will be a challenge in many cases; such breakage uses up labor time and freezing energy involved in making the parts of the kites. Freezer space at home or work might be at a premium; but visualize a kite builder who lives in sub-freezing temperatures; the barn could be filled with ice-kite parts!
   
• [ ] Will the GLAD® Press 'n Seal™ wrap play a part in making some water-kite parts?
   
• Knowing well how to freeze various kinds of forms will probably affect outcomes. Rate of cooling? Presence of air in the water? Has the water been purified and de-gassed? Is air available during the freezing? How does a form release surface change the final ice surface? Will it pay good dividends to melt surfaces and then re-freeze?  Having ice at near the freezing point compared to having the ice at x degrees below the freezing point will cause performance differences; exactly what those differences are will be important to kite-part performance.  Flying the ice kite in air that is at the same temperature as the ice kite will be somewhat different from flying the kite in a warmer or colder air stream; knowing the full range of these matters will serve the kite engineering effort and serve to alter designs.
   
• Find several ways to make quality ice foam and ice space structures. Ice geodesic domes large and small.
   
• Compare a needle of ice made from one freeze with identical size and shape from a multiple-dip method. Do such at various temperatures. Can a multiple-shell effect be obtained at some temperature that captures structures of crystals that serve the kite-parts needs? What is known about this kind of matter? The needles of some storms vary in this matter; accretion occurs over times as a needle is formed. Recall that the project would not permit adding non-water to the finished part.
   
• Liquid water surfaces have a surface tension that is interesting; does that structure continue any special effect as the ice freezes?  Does the effect disappear if the frozen form is sprayed with super-cooled water?
   
• What might be done with lasers to possibly enhance the structure characteristics of ice-kite parts? Could strengthening be achieved by careful use of lasers? Or would we get only a weakening of an ice kite part?
   
• Will frozen carbon dioxide be used during water-ice-kite part making for any good effects?  Similarly, will liquid nitrogen be used?
   
• This is an aside: http://www.todbe.com/lod14.html Snow and Glacier Flying Dragons
   
• An aside: ugh, ouch: http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/002662.html
   
• "Ice kites"   is a term used commonly for kites used for traction over ice.  Snow kites, water kites and ski kites are also common terms for traction kites.   These kites are not made of ice.  http://www.icekites.com/home.htm
   
• Aside: Event of miniature kites called "Kites On Ice"  http://miniatures.kitingusa.com/koi2000/kites_on_ice.htm
   
• CLOSE!  At an event someone carved a Malay kite; very thick ice and no bridle in sight and no flight attempt: "Ice kite, and it did not melt!" http://www.gwtw-kites.com/KitesOnIce/koipageone.asp
  http://www.gwtw-kites.com/KOI%20Photos/icekite3.jpg   I sent a request today:
  • Gone With The Wind Kites Online
    3030 Thorntree Drive #12 Chico, Ca. 95973
    Office line: 530-894-2064 FAX Line: 530-894-3109
    
    Steve Hall and Christine Miller ,
    In our discussion at
    http://www.josephfaust.com/kiteworld/kiteofwater/index.htm
    we have noted carefully in our April 28th notes that your website
    has a picture of an ice art sculpture in the form of a Malay Kite
    at one of the Kites on Ice events.
    May we feature the photograph non-commercially in the
    discussion and give a byline of your design? The photograph
    on your site is on page:
    
    http://www.gwtw-kites.com/KitesOnIce/koipageone.asp
    http://www.gwtw-kites.com/KOI%20Photos/icekite3.jpg
    
    It would be fun to show the kite; I will agree to hyperlink the photo
    to go to the page of your choosing and give a credit line to your design.
    
    We are on a project to get actual kites flying that are made only of water.
    
    Thank you,
    Joe Faust
    Moderator for Kites of Water Project
     
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